minority blues

So, we know Israel is a shining beacon of democracy in the Middle East.

And Avigdor Lieberman, former bouncer and current illegal settler who believes that the true raison d’etre of the Dead Sea is as place of forcible mass drowning of Palestinians, is now no.2 man. That this barely registers in Israel surely means the democratic will of the people is being expressed. So deal with the pesky minorities and keep up the murder of innocent indigenous women, children and men. It’s the will of the people.

“Minorities are the biggest problem in the world,” he said in his soft, Russian-accented English. Asked if Israeli citizens of Arab descent should be forced out through territorial redistribution, he said: “I think separation between two nations is the best solution. Cyprus is the best model…When it was pointed out that in Cyprus thousands were forcibly driven from their homes, he replied: “Yes, but the final result was better.”

Yes, but we also have a long memory of a how the majority came to be the minority, and of a short European strong man with gaze also fixed on a final something. Since we’re supposed to learn from history, give Israel a little more time to write the Palestinians into its annals. Maybe then we can talk about the crime that was.

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17 Replies to “minority blues”

  1. I am israeli and I want to say that I am shame that this person is in my govermant and you need to understand that the most of the israeli don’t think like him…
    you are absolutely right, this man is a racist and facist he think that irael should act like russia..but look at the positive side, all the govemant denounced him, even olmert.

  2. Alon I appreciate your comment here, and I understand that many Israelis are against what’s happening in Israel. I just hope that the Israelis can one day stop this infernally destructive machine – that is the state they have – producing more hatred and oppression, so that we can all rest for a while.

  3. Yes and I hope that the Lebaneses will act the same and denounce hezbolla…because we need two side that want peace, israel isn’t the only fault for this situation.

  4. alon, Hizballah is a product of Israeli actions in the south of Lebanon (if you go back to history and until now). Hizballah has no interest but to solve the issues left unanswered by the Israeli state (territorial occupation, prisoners, mines, palestinian refugees, etc.). Once this is done, Hizballah will naturally have other political focus.

  5. Yes and to kill 42 cevilians in purposely only because they are israeli even when there is no army base near their city, even when IDF left lebanon 6 years ago, even when the prisoner in israel are two murders that one of them killed 4 years old and her father…say what you want but until that you understand who are hezbolla there will be no peace…you can say what you want but israel will not do peace with you until your people disarm hezbolla….and for “shaba farms” this isn’t lebanon territory this is syrian territory by the U.N…and why this hezbolla doesn’t attcked the syrian when they occupied lebanon? how much Lebaneses prisoner there is in syria? why they don’t fight on them?…the peace start in ourself israel want peace, the people demonstrate against the govermat, but you…you don’t do nothing…only blame israel…good luck on that..

  6. Alon, the Israeli Government has neither denounced Lieberman nor yet come out with a position on his fascist vision, unless Olmert’s statement that “Avigdor’s recommendations” are not his constitutes a denunciation. The reaction is hardly a storm, & will disappear as surely as Naftali Tamir did. Lieberman will remain to play bad cop to Olmert’s good cop (how else does one reinvent a monster but to offer up one infinitely worse?), and nothing will really change. Numbers will continue to exist in a vacuum, as will acts of Palestinian and Lebanese resistance, which is after all resistance to nothing but a vacuum, imagined occupations, imagined human rights violations, invented murders and other fabricated crimes (including, for example, UN fabrications about the number of Israeli breaches of Lebanese sovereignty).

  7. Alon, I’m going to give you a less lazy reply because you seem to be interested in dialogue, & that’s good. So the unhinged Rambler is stepping aside to make way for the Straight-Shooter.
    1. Israel overwhelmingly killed civilians and continues to do so with the million+ cluster bomblets (which makes them sound grotesquely cute) fired in the last 3 days of the war. Do you consider this unavoidable, or not intended to kill civilians? That Hizballah “purposely” killed civilians is a contentious point, with journalists based inside Israel trying to circumvent censorship laws to expose the placement of military instalments & temporary artillery batteries in or near Israeli towns, including Arab towns. Because this is a reply & I have to be concise, I’ll defer to Jonathan Cook for more ( http://www.counterpunch.org/cook09072006.html ) but you can look in Haaretz if you prefer.
    2. Shebaa farms – the people of Shebaa consider it Lebanese land and have documents & deeds to prove so dating back over 50 years, the Lebanese and Syrian Governments say the Farms are Lebanese, and Israel and the UN (under the auspices of Bolton & Co) say they are Syrian. Whether the motivation is to keep the Golan entangled in a greater mess and withdrawal a distant (unlikely) dream, or because of the abundance of water, Israel is still an illegal occupier and is required to withdraw under international law. It’s not a gift to be withheld and given at Israel’s whim.
    3. Then there is the question of Palestinian right of return in which Lebanon has a vested interest because as you know, Lebanon is home to hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees forced out of their homes & off their lands. Peace without a real solution (that does not include mass-drownings in the Dead Sea) is impossible under these circumstances.
    4. Bassam Quntar is not the only Lebanese detainee in Israel. It might be worth asking why Israel kept him and the others after the exchange in 2004. Here you have continuity with the Shebaa Farms & the elusive maps detailing locations of landmines even after the 2000 withdrawal –bargaining chips in an open-ended war. Read http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1821001,00.html if you wish. I’ll be posting in more detail about the issue of the detainees soon, but this article also touches on why we DO understand Hizballah. We understand why they came to be (see Bech’s comments above), and that they are of the Lebanese soil and cannot be reduced to a visiting “terrorist” entity try as Israel, America & friends may to fit them into the script written for the region.
    5. Syria – our issue to deal with. Israel needs to take some of the load off. You have enough on your plate with the illegally occupied land to withdraw from, the detainees to release & the airspace to stop “roaming in”.
    6. Demonstrations. Demonstrations are the new black in Beirut. Come on Alon, this one’s ours surely.

  8. dear rambler,
    I know that you will not agree with me, but its importent to me that you know what israelis thinks and this is not some propaganda.

    1) israel killed cevilians but not in purpose, this is against IDF rules, this is against israel idiology, its against democracy,
    if israel realy want to killed Lebaneses cevilians so why they warned them? why they shoot only on “dahia” neighborhood and not on north beirut?

    2)shaba frams- I realy don’t care from this land, I have not been there, and this is very little piece of land…in 2000 when israel left lebanon its left to the U.N lines…we can give you shaba farms back, but then your hezbolla will see this like a weakness, and they will want the galil and than haifa and than israel they will always find something to fight with us cause they have iranina interests… we can’t bring them shaba farms without some agreement, you know, like in the police that you don’t surrender to the terrorist and give them what they want, because you know that someone will do the same in the next time.

    3)palestinian right of return is not relevant, you talk here on 6 millions palestinians most of them even haven’t seen israel before …no one in israel will accept this..if I like it or not…

    4) I gusse yo mean sammir quntar…and israel gave back all of the Lebaneses prisoners in 2004 except of him, for 3 bodys and one drugs dealer…
    lebanon will put him in jail?? I don’t think so…

    5)syria, I accept what you said…this is not our busines..but I don’t understand why do you accept this, that hezbolla fought only with israel and it didn’t fought with the syrian…and than its tell you that it protect on lebanon…I don’t understand why you beleive this shit?

    in all your demonstration I have not seen one brave man who called to make peace with israel…in israel only two days ago there was big left demonstration with 100000 people which called for peace…

    all what I said are just words, we can argue on this issues for days and weeks…but we will never agree ’cause we have diffrent interests…but I just want to hear that you want peace also…and not like the right in israel say, that you will never recognize us..
    I want to hear that you sorry for israeli cevilians that has killed like, we are sorry for your cevilians…I want that you agree with me that “shaba farms” or some prisoners are not worth 2000 dead people…yes israel are blame also…but to blame israel only and not to look at yourself will not bring peace…only another war.

    sorry on my english I am very tired…

  9. Why is it that you are complaining about Israeli policy against minorities, and you do not seem to complain about Arab policies against their own minorities?? I really fail to understand you. For you everything that is happening in the world in general and in the Middle East – Lebanon is because of Israel. Come on, that’s too easy. Start looking into your own garden…

  10. first of all, Ze carioca, I don’t know where in the Arab we treat “minorities” like you called them (which is already racist in itself in the context of Israel) by outright violent oppression. Give me some examples dear friend.

    second of all, Alon, I understand your concern but I seriously think there are many points you have been misled on. I will answer you point by point in a bit.

  11. if israel realy want to killed Lebaneses cevilians so why they warned them? why they shoot only on “dahia” neighborhood and not on north beirut?

    Nobody claimed that they want to kill civilians purposefully. (Except for Qana massacre that even Israeli army said it was a mistake, and it looked like Israelis were just vengeful because of horrible defeat incurring.) But even when it’s not purposeful, Israel killed massively just because they are cowards trying to get as many Hezbollah fighters as possible without having to go after them. So they just “shoot in the crowd”. Similar techniques are used in Gaza everyday, open the newspaper. Also they did not just bomb dahia Alon.

    shaba frams- I realy don’t care from this land, I have not been there, and this is very little piece of land…

    You don’t care but the government, and other powers such as the US do care my friend aron. It’s all a very complex story so let’s leave it here.

    we can give you shaba farms back, but then your hezbolla will see this like a weakness, and they will want the galil and than haifa and than israel they will always find something to fight with us cause they have iranina interests…

    Please re-read what you wrote here Alon, it does not make sense. Nobody wants to get more territory just for the sake of getting territory. Hezbollah is not “a demon” with essentialist features built in it. Political goals are logical for the most part; there is a continuity of interest. And here “interests” as you use it is just too absurd. Iran just wants to have a deterrent strength against any possible Israeli offensive. Let me remind you that Israel has the biggest military arsenal in the region.

    we can’t bring them shaba farms without some agreement

    What type of agreement? Hezbollah and the Lebanese state have been asking for such agreements for years now.

    palestinian right of return is not relevant, you talk here on 6 millions palestinians most of them even haven’t seen israel before …no one in israel will accept this..if I like it or not…

    just like that… brushed away… right of return.. Palestinians etc. This is why existentially Israel will always be a belligerent state. And the horrible thing is that you represent the peaceful side of Israel, brushing away the rights of return. So what would be the hawkish side of Israel? Well, Lieberman.

    sammir quntar…and israel gave back all of the Lebaneses prisoners in 2004 except of him, for 3 bodys and one drugs dealer…
    lebanon will put him in jail?? I don’t think so…

    Alon, we don’t know exactly what samir quntar did. You should revise report history, it’s not even sure he killed these people. Plus, it does not make sense that he would go and execute a family just for the sake of it, when he is trying to pressure an army. Anyway, no one knows for sure. Also, we repeat that there are many other prisoners.
    Let me remind you my dear Alon that most of your senior officials have blood on their hands (Sharon, Barak, etc.) in operations performed in Lebanon and in Palestinian territories. I don’t see Israelis pressing for them being in jail. Did you put in jail the Israeli soldiers who killed a good dozen of kids and women on the road of marwaheen while they were trying to escape in a bus?

    I don’t understand why do you accept this, that hezbolla fought only with israel and it didn’t fought with the syrian…and than its tell you that it protect on lebanon…

    Lebanese political system is very complex and we have our issues, but Israel has proven to be a far greater enemy than Syria to say the least. Syria has done a lot of harm to Lebanon, but this was mostly due to internal Lebanese rivalries where Syria profited from the situation. And even with that in mind, Syria never went as far as trying to eradicate a portion of the population or to bomb Lebanon back 20 years to use Olmert’s very smart terms.

    in all your demonstration I have not seen one brave man who called to make peace with israel…

    First of all you can be brave and ask for peace with Israel when Israel’s cluster bomb are still killing kids and women in the south. Second, you cannot call for peace with a state that tried to destroy the country.
    It is the Israeli population that has this task on its conscience. You Alon, and all of your compatriots should wake up to see that they are the sole responsible people for this mess. Please don’t take it wrong. But the Israeli government has done more harm to its surroundings than any other political entity in the past decades.

    but we will never agree ’cause we have diffrent interests..

    no on the contrary Alon we have the same interests. Enough killings.

    but I just want to hear that you want peace also…and not like the right in israel say, that you will never recognize us..

    Forget about this whole “recognition” non-sense. It is purely political rhetoric! Of course I recognize. You’re my fellow human being. You’re made of flesh and bones. You have a society and a political community in which you live just like me. We’re all the same. But for now the politics of your country is doing harm to several other political communities. So act upon it.

    I want to hear that you sorry for israeli cevilians that has killed like, we are sorry for your cevilians…

    Of course I am sorry that civilians are killed in Israel. I am even more sorry that the Israeli government who is the sole responsible for this mess in the first place, makes you think that you should ask me to be sorry for these deaths when actually you should just focus on the murderous adventures of your government.

    I want that you agree with me that “shaba farms” or some prisoners are not worth 2000 dead people

    I don’t’ even think that Hezbollah think that anything is worth the death of 2000 innocents! Nothing would have happened if the Israeli government would accept to negotiate in the first place. But no, they are too proud. Besides the Americans wanted it this way.

    but to blame israel only and not to look at yourself will not bring peace…only another war.

    If you check the blog you’ll see that the majority of our posts are about criticizing ourselves. But believe me in this debate, poor Israel is way out of line. You guys need to understand that your government has been feeding you lies for so long now, that even simple assumptions you have about reality should be put into question.

  12. lets me tell you somethig, in israel we know when someone lie to us,
    we know that olmert is a fucking corrupt that care only for his chair, but all the politicans are the same, in israel, U.S, and yes…lebanon and hezbolla also.

    all of the israeli public supported in the last war.
    from the right, from the left, the settler, religious every one.

    David grossman the man who hate the war, hate the occupation, he is in the extremely left, support in this war…you know why?
    because we left lebanon, and still those hezbolla attack us.
    you have interests, we have interests too, and you need to understand that you can’t attack us and than to crt when we attack you.
    I don’t care from olmert, this is not like bush in iraq, this is diffrent, this war was been on israel not on olmert or the govermant…

    I agree with you, we can’t force you put samir kuntar in jail, but you can’t force us to give this scum back.
    this man killed father and daughter, do you realy think that the mother of the 4 years old girl lie to us? is she some politician that make zionist connection against the arabs?…are you hear yourself?
    this is enough, you can say that sharon is a killer and barak and rabin, and the army shoot on cevilians…I don’t agree with you but I understand you, but to say that this mother fucker samir kuntar isn’t a killer, and the mother is mybe a lier…this is make me sick…mybe you need to read more on this case because its seem to me that you don’t know nothing on this. ther is pictures from the police if you want in the internet, ot mybe you say that the police killed the child?
    but hi, some of you say that israel did 9/11 and some say that rabin hasn’t been murdered…
    but still I appreciate your comments, but on this issue you realy need to read more…

    leave that..except of the issue of samir kuntar we can argue all the year…its just waste of time…the importent thing to me its to make peace and start to look on the other in diffrent view …I want to talk on thing that we agree…

  13. Dear Alon, let’s take Samir Quntar’s murder of Einat Haran as truth and rightly feel outrage. Can you tell me the name of one Palestinian or Lebanese child murdered by Israelis? Or give me any idea of the number of children killed in any given month? Or is it the case that murder by airstrike or cluster bomb or direct shot with the front end of a rifle is somehow less morally reprehensible than killing a child with a rifle-butt? Or that an Arab child’s life is infinitely less valuable than a Jewish Israeli child’s? See, this is one wall that needs to come down before any real peace can be reached. I’m finding it difficult to reconcile your outrage at this murder with your easy dismissal of the reality that this very year the IDF/IAF unquestionably targeted and killed over a thousand overwhelmingly civilian Lebanese and continues to do so. It is hard to sit at a table and talk peace with a “partner” who has shown contempt for your life and your people and refuses to even recognise civilian victims as victims of their own making. As for the children of Gaza today, where does one begin? It’s not enough to want peace and “protest” for this abstract “peace” based on your own needs without addressing the needs of those you claim to want peace with or offering up any real concessions. Peace is hollow without rights and justice, one obvious example being the Palestinian right of return, which you dismissed offhand. When you go out to demonstrate for “peace”, it would help us if you’d spell out exactly what you’re prepared to do to get there.

    Back to Samir Quntar, and to dialogue about something on which we agree. I think we can agree that real change is needed using avenues open to us now. Here’s another Israeli perspective: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=760588&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4

    Alon, when I was looking for info about the 100.000+ protest you told about, I found more reports on the protests against the gay pride parade and the violent clashes between police and Ethiopian Jews protesting the reinstatement of the Health Ministry’s policy of trashing of their donated blood. I think we’re back where we started now, on minority blues in israel.

  14. Either you are blind or you are totally biased. No problem with minorities in the arab world? Heel, look at the Kurds in Iraq, at the Copt in Egypt, at the Jews in the arab world, and soon at the Christians in Palestine and Lebanon. So there are no problem – Correct?

  15. dear Ze Carioca of course there are no problems:

    the Kurds in Iraq,
    They are not a minority, they have equal share in the government, soon they may have a state of their own. they also have energy resources, and Israeli military training. Don’t worry for them they will definitely be fine!

    at the Copt in Egypt,
    the more complicated issue, it has more to do with political struggles, and less with oppression. It is strange that the only Christian religious figure to condemn the Pope’s remarks on Muslim was the Copt Patriarch. STrange coming from someone who’s supposed to be persecuted no?

    at the Jews in the arab world,
    Do I need to remind you that Israel has unfortunately taken all the jews from other ARab countries? Do you know how jews left Iraq historically? Do you know how the MOSSAD fomented troubles there to incite jews to come to Israel? Do you know how desperate Israel was to get Jews from the Arab world to Israel?
    Now there are no jews in Arabic countries, except a tiny tiny minority. And there fine, gotta couple of jewish friends in Lebanon and they are very healthy never had any problems, politically active, etc.

    and soon at the Christians in Palestine and Lebanon.
    Ha, ha, let’s hope before Israel exterminates the rest of the population of Palestine! No arioca my dear friend, in Lebanon the different communities have their own turf, very strongly entrenched. And for examle today, the strongest political alliance today is between Hezbollah (shiites) and Tayyar (Christians for the most part), so don’t worry we have Hezbollah to protect the Christians 🙂

  16. “when I was looking for info about the 100.000+ protest you told about, I found more reports on the protests against the gay pride parade and the violent clashes between police and Ethiopian Jews protesting the reinstatement of the Health Ministry’s policy of trashing of their donated blood. I think we’re back where we started now, on minority blues in israel.”

    At list we give the gay the right to march, do you see gays in the arab world?
    give me an honest answer, if your Lebanese president will be accused in rape…will someone do him something? will someone listen to the women?
    give me a break. I know this, and you know this, that israel is a lot more open to minority than the arab world…its not make us better, but I am proud that we can argue and demonstrate for our liberty…and lebanon is the most liberal country from the arabs and still, you have much more to do…

    for your question…no I don’t know any arab child who killed, but I am sorry on his life like any israeli child…but there is diffrent between killing someone when you bomb his home, because someone shoot on your country from his house, and killing girl in cold blood…yes there is a diffrent…you all the time compare beirut of 2006 to london of 1941, but do you know how much cevilians killed the british in war world two? …someone said them anything on murderd, war crimes…how much cevilians the russians killed, the americans, the frenchs, you, the christinas in sabra and shtila? do they warned the cevilians? do they send them S.M.S to live their homes?
    I hate war, we shouldn’t fight, but israel is not diffrent than any other nation in the world…it is easy to blame us because we are not so strong like those great nations…
    we are all killers if you look it like this, but to kill 4 years old child you need to be seek person, and if you find some I.D.F soldiers who do such a thing…you will see that he will judge and go to the prison to the next of his life..(there is some soldiers who were been accused on thing like that and they judged and send to the prison).

    we recognize your victims, and we care from them…but people who fight in the name of god for pice of shit, both in israel or in lebanon need to be expose.

    I agrre we are no perfect, there is settlers, and libermans, and some crazy people but we don’t let them to control in our country…we don’t let them to start wars, we don’t let them to kill…and if they come to power from the democracy there is more authority that stop them to do what they want.

    there is things that we are agree on them, I think that we both hate radical people…and if it so you need to expose hezbolla, and we need to expose our extreme people.

  17. alon to make a long and painful conversation short, because I don’t have much time, I wish to say that we have a lot in common in the way we perceive reality. Same values basically. But the facts we see are slightly different. It does not matter, because this is why people negotiate for peace, something we’ll do sooner or later.

    Gays do demonstrate, there is a gay pride every year in Lebanon. Besides I don’t understand why Israelis think they are a beacon of democracy, while the rest of the Arab world is “backard” and lack basic liberties. Nothing is further from the truth. But please don’t answer to that, it’s too annoying to continue picking on details. Just stop reading Bernard Lewis, and stop advising to read, because unfortunately for me, that’s all I do during most of my day for the past i don’t know how many years.

    What is important now is that you understand that there is nothing in common between Liberman and Hezbollah. Hizballah has been portrayed as “extremist” when judging from their actions, they show restraint and moderation. Hezbollah never attacked Israel without clear cause and on a defensive basis. It is a resistance group. And believe me, if you here many Israeli officials and analysts, they think that the most reliable and trustworthy party for them in future negotiations is Hezbollah. You know why? because Hezbollah never breaks his word, unlike many other arab leaders and elites.

    Continue marching for peace, and we’re waiting for you at the end of the road with our open arms. But we cannot walk along the same path at the same time, because you (Israeli public/government) has still much to do to repair the damage done. But trust me everybody waits for Israel to swallow its pride. I know so many Israeli (and jews around the world) that agree with me on all these points they are the seeds of hope for a new generation of lebanese, arab, and israeli brothers. I don’t give much creedence to phony “peace” movements that call “Khezballah” terrorists.

    You think your state is accountable, whereas other Arab states are not. That’s not true, many things the Israelis did went uncovered. By the way, Barak killed with his own hand palestinians in Lebanon. Sharon permited the christian militias to enter the palestinian camps of sabra and chatila and watched from ahead. Israeli soldiers were circling the camps and went inside and participated in the killings.

    By the way let me know if you are judging the people who massacred the kids of marwaheen, of qana, of..etc.

    By the way, don’t invoke god, the whole existence of your nation is based on a religious affiliation! don’t be shameful!

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